IN CONVERSATION

UnMapping Fellow, Taryn Flaherty, and UnMapping Instructors, Lauren Lowe and Carol Richardson McCullough, met with Lillian Fenzil to discuss the overlapping topics of love in Philadelphia, oral histories, and intergenerational organizing.

Edited for length and clarity 

Lillian: Hi guys! Thank you for meeting. To get started, I’ll give you guys a broad question to provide some context. what's happening in Chinatown and why is it something everyone should care about? 

Carol: Well, I'm not a native Philadelphian but I've been here half of my life, so I'm transplanted here. One of the things that stood out to me about this city was the fact that there was a Chinatown. And I remember the awe that I felt the first time that I saw the arch and walked on the streets of Chinatown. And I thought this is so cool. I live in a city now that has this cultural treasure. And I didn't have to go to San Francisco. I didn't have to go to New York. It's right here in Philly. I think that is something that should be preserved, and if it comes under attack, then it needs to be defended because people came here and built that community. And it's worth saving.

Taryn: I think Miss Carol is really touching on a good point. I think by now a lot of people understand that Chinatown is a neighborhood. It's not just a series of businesses and storefronts that you just go into to get your boba and leave. People live on top [of the shops]. People go to school. From 3 to 5 pm, the streets are filled with kids and their little backpacks on, flooding the streets. To have a community under threat of displacement, or just even losing one person they consider an auntie or a little cousin or something like that -- it is something that we take very seriously and that we want to protect. But I also think something we've been talking a lot in the Chinatown Coalition is shifting from the idea that this is clearly bad for Chinatown -- no one is even pretending like it's good for Chinatown at this point. After the economic study came out, it's like 20% of businesses will possibly benefit while everyone else is screwed -- but now the conversation is about, “Is it good for the city?”

As someone who went to public school all my life, public school students are the ones getting most harmed by this arena. Instead of focusing on making sure that this billion dollar development pays property taxes and doesn't take shortcuts, they're getting a Centrally Billed Account (CBA). All their property taxes are dissolved, and they are only paying 11 million over 30 years to the school district. Three million is just Sixers tickets.

It's not the students who are getting any of that money. Valuing a basketball team over the city's youth is -- even with my position as a former public-school student -- I think that's egregious and ridiculous, especially in a city that is dealing with such a youth crisis right now.

Lauren: Going off of both of those things, it's nice to have the reminder of the very personal stakes... this is what community means. And to Taryn's point, as we're part of similar conversations... For so long it's been framed: “It's Chinatown and the immediate surrounding neighborhoods versus the arena,” but it is a citywide thing. And it is at Market East. I remember, on one of the planning commission, civic design reviews, one of the people on that committee went, “This is a generational development that's taking place right now.” And I feel like it's playing out all of these issues that we see across the city. Schuylkill Yards is right here [30th Street]. It's three point one billion dollars backed by Drexel, backed by the universities with these big developments. And it was the same promotion of “OK, we're going to give you all this much money, or we'll create X amount of jobs.” And do we see that in reality? What is the cost of people being displaced from their homes because property taxes are going up? Developers are moving in and as you know, flipping houses. I think really trying to understand what's happening with the arena is not just Chinatown's problem, but everybody's problem.

When we talk about what we want for the city of Philadelphia as the bicentennial approaches, as we think about the next chapter that we want to write for the next 250 years, do we want to just let billionaires who -- some of whom have made their money in part by gentrifying and displacing people in West Philadelphia -- continue to avoid paying property taxes, and invest what sounds like a good amount of money? These are also the people telling us not to look behind the curtain at everything else that could be going on here. Do we want to say, “If this is a citywide CBA, we want to see real investments in our public schools and for our youth, and there's a housing crisis going on right now. Why can't the money be for those things?”

Just understanding that, yes, it's the arena right now; tomorrow will be something else in another neighborhood. There's an “arena" in every neighborhood. This is part of a much larger conversation about what we want for our city.

Lillian: I'm noticing a lot of “next chapter” conversations coming to the forefront. What would you say the role of oral storytelling plays in these next stages? 

Taryn: Wait, I have a question, Miss Carol. What's your project for UnMapping? So I have context.

 

Carol: Well, part of it is looking at two communities that are old, but are undergoing change and are undergoing the threat of disruption through gentrification. We're going to take a look at the Mantua community just contiguous to Drexel, where we are now. We're also going to be looking at Chinatown. There are points of commonality, points of similarity between the two of those neighborhoods. Lots of times people want to point out the differences, but as long as that happens, people stand apart from each other. Once you see the similarity and the commonality in groups of people, they can come together. 

This is going to sound funny. I almost said fight the power. And I started hearing that song in my mind...the idea of unity between two groups that have really more in common than people like to admit. 

Lauren: Carol and I are co-instructors for the WRIT 290 class. Carol used to live in Mantua, actually. And I think part of the work of the class is to go back, to tie with [Lillian’s] question, is how does storytelling support social change and how can it be a tool for anti-gentrification and preserving culture in neighborhoods? We're diving into the local context of what's happening in Mantua and what's happening in Chinatown as the backdrop for exploring that. 

Lillian: And Taryn, do you want to talk more about your project, too? 

Taryn: Oh, yeah. I can give some framing of mine. The basis of it is just oral histories of Chinatown. Obviously, it is working in response to the threat of displacement from the 76ers arena, but I think oral history has been such a devalued form of history, of knowledge, in terms of Western academia. So taking this approach of the history of the community told by the community is the angle that I'm working from. 

I went to school in Chinatown. My parents have been very involved in Philly’s Chinatown since they came to Philadelphia, so, I definitely know a lot of people or know people who know people. My project right now has been mostly interviewing people who were in Chinatown back in the 70s and 80s. Later, as I move on through my project, I'm trying to get more people who immigrated to Philadelphia in the 90s or even in the past 20 years.

Carol: It's interesting to preserve stories in the face of change. Nowadays, you hear a lot of change, not in a good way, but in wiping out the record of what has come before. If everything is computerized and digitized, you can just press a button and make things go away a little bit too easily. When people talk face to face and young people sit at the feet of the elders and hear the stories, there's something powerful in that and something wonderful with generations sharing the knowledge. My people come from an oral tradition. My people come from a time where it was against the law for us to learn how to read or write because the people who had stolen the power recognized the strength that comes from that kind of knowledge. 

Talking face to face and sharing stories is important, so that younger generations know what has come before them, know the history, so that when others try to wipe it away, they'll be like, uh-uh-uh, that's not right. Grandma told me what happened.   

Taryn: This sounds very much like Folk Arts-Cultural Treasures Charter School in Chinatown, FACTS. We have this thing -- Founders Day -- and it's all the founders of the school coming around to each classroom. They tell, not just how they founded the school, but most of them were immigration activists, a lot of them were educators, or community members. They're not really business types founding a charter school today; some charters are almost run like corporations. I think hearing about people's immigration story to the US, or how they became a teacher and saw the faults in the school district, and how that brought them to create something new, something that preserved Folk Arts, a lot of Asian Folk Arts, but all different kinds. 

I think that as a young person, that taught me a lot about, not just diverse backgrounds or how people can do things in their life and I can also do things in my life, but also prepared me pretty well. A lot of those histories were based in resistance during the 2000 stadium fight and the 2008 casino fight in Chinatown. 

Something I've been thinking a lot about is when new developments come in or threats of gentrification, displacement, they're often very traumatizing processes. It's a form of violence that people don't necessarily associate with the word violence, but it can be. Eviction and displacement can be so violent. Something about my upbringing that I've been very grateful for is the lessons and histories, the oral traditions of telling history or just the history of Chinatown, has made me feel a little more prepared when coming into the fight. 

Lots of the elders in Chinatown got their start just in the thick of it. They're business owners and suddenly there's a baseball stadium, and they have to learn right away with really high stakes. The stakes are still very high today, but it's the fact that when the arena came out, I knew how we were going to organize, not “Who do I know, who do I talk to?” It was “Get ready on the ground, get ready.” Something about storytelling is that it inspires the next generation. 

Lauren: It's funny because I was just in a meeting on Monday, and I can see where some of my friends in organizing are sort of like, “Oh my God, what do we do? What's the playbook?” And because my dad grew up in the 70s, there are all these family friends that I talked to, I could respond “Okay, we're probably not going to know the answer of what the path forward is, and just be comfortable with that.” But also I knew and understood [from my family friends] that you have to keep the pressure on. It was so grounding. We're moving at warp speed right now, and even as that's happening I feel very grounded with all of the history behind me, as well as getting to be in rooms with my elders working on this thing. I think it really is empowering. 

And the other thing, Taryn, as you were talking, I thought it is such a violence -- the gentrification, development, and displacement. And storytelling is also -- we're using the word folk art -- and there's something really healing about that. This ability to find bright spots and real joy amidst what can be a really traumatizing process is something that kind of flies under the radar a little bit when we're talking about these things. 

Whether it's in the story itself, but also in the sharing. I think of how many stories I've heard from my family or from my dad and his friends. They just love reminiscing together, and you find out that people met and fell in love during that time. Or like it'll bleed into another story of something silly they did where they went out to get dinner after an action, all these things. It's also offering this other alternative of not just fighting, but also community building. 

This sense of renewal is really important in being able to maintain your discipline and stamina for fights that take years -- like years and years and years to go through – is something that, as we can see, is a very cyclical process that come up in our communities. 

Lillian: And that's something Ginger Arts Center is working on too? 

Taryn: Oh, yeah! A little bit about the Ginger Arts Center. I don't know how much Ms. Carol knows. Originally, in the Save Chinatown coalition, me and some other college students who were born and raised in Philly started Students for the Preservation of Chinatown (SPOC). We were mostly organizing on campuses, holding protests, and acting as somewhat of a mobilization arm. As students, obviously a little more aggressive and combative with the developers, but after we had been protesting and active for a year, we began reflecting on what Chinatown really needs. With the politics in the universities in this past year, with Palestine as well, we were reflecting on the question, “Does SPOC really need to be the one fighting for the limelight on campuses?” Maybe not at this moment. We were also thinking about how we're all students. We have a lot of time on our hands, relative to someone who has a whole business and kids to feed and a whole life. Should we really be diverting our resources and our time and energy onto campuses away from Chinatown, or should we be bringing that time, energy, and resources into Chinatown? That's when we applied for a grant, thankfully got it, to have the money to build this community center, Ginger Arts. It's a community youth and arts center in Chinatown North.   

Part of that project is the fact that Chinatown has been split into two by the Vine Street Expressway, and most people don't even know that Chinatown North exists. There's warehouses with Chinese signs and Chinese owned businesses/buildings all the way up into Spring Garden. Even though we mostly chose our location for the cheap rent, it is also because it is part of this act to reclaim Chinatown North as Chinatown, since Chinatown doesn't really have anywhere else to expand. Obviously, there's Market Street South. There's the bridge and governmental buildings East. West is obviously a convention center. So, we're trying to bridge over the Vine Street Expressway that once fractured the community.  

Part of that is healing or investing in our young people. The high schoolers that I've met through founding Ginger Arts, they bring a smile to my face every time. Also, a face palm too. They are very silly individuals. It is so refreshing to see people who are a handful of years younger than myself be so confident and so invested in the center. We are looking to expand that out because I feel like they find a lot of joy in screaming karaoke in our basement every day. So silly, silly. But that's also Ginger Arts. 

The main thing that I feel is different is the fact that we don't have a lot of open spaces for kids in Chinatown, or anywhere in the city. Most of our malls, they've implemented the rule that if you're under 18, you have to be with an adult. You can't come in during X hours. I get carded every time *laughs* Anyways, kids don't have a place to go other than taking SEPTA, however long it will take them, north, south, west. Even though that definitely brings back the days and reminiscing, our kids need places that are free where they don't have to spend money. Even the boba shops! You have to buy boba and you can't be buying boba every day nowadays. It's like $8 sometimes. 

I think having a place where the kids have Wi-Fi, air conditioning during the summer, heating in the winter, they can do their homework, they can talk, they can just be kids. It's like something that we're striving for Ginger Arts to really become. 

Lillian: I love that you're offering support to young students and helping them find a place to be themselves in these third spaces. I also appreciate hearing the intergenerational nature of these organizing spaces -- with hearing stories from elders while also being able to continue to tell them to these younger generations, which is really nice. And correct me if I'm wrong, but is there a Ginger Arts and Writers Room collaborative event coming up? 

*Laughs* 

Lauren: Why, yes, Lillian.

 

Taryn: Plugging the event! 

Lillian: November 6th

Lauren: Yes, November 6th from 6 to 7:30 here at Ross Commons. 

Lillian: And before we wrap up this conversation, do you guys have any other information you want to share about the organizing in Chinatown... 

Lauren: Come to City Hall on 10/24. Pack City Hall at 8am.  

Taryn: Wear your No Arena shirts. 

Lauren: Yeah, I think something that I hope people would understand, particularly when I'm thinking about Writers Room's audience, is that there are a lot of people who are not yet involved in this, who could be, and I think a lot of people after the mayor made her endorsement were like, oh, that's it. Thinking, it's a done deal, and it's not actually a done deal. It's not even close to that. 

I'm not saying that it's an easy thing to accomplish, what's ahead of us, but there are a lot of moving pieces to this, and even after legislation is introduced, that's still not a done deal. There have to be committee hearings. There will be votes, all these things. There's still a lot of lobbying that we can do.  

It feels like a situation where there are these private rooms where there are powers making decisions for the rest of us, and it doesn't need to be that way. Something I keep talking about after living in New York for a little while and coming back -- I actually just was in New York last weekend, and I felt this again -- when I'm in New York with my friends, everybody's spending the entire time talking about how they're probably going to leave New York eventually. Everybody's like, “It's so busy here. I hate it.” Like, da-da-da. Ragging on New York is part of it. 

When you ask people in Philly that question, everybody goes, “No, that’s crazy. I love it here. Why would I leave?” I think that’s something this moment has. We could all tap into this Philly loves Philly so much. When we really start to think about that aspect of this fight, that's what makes it really compelling. I don't want billionaires to tell me what's going to happen for the future of our city. I want to have a hand in it, and we know what's right for our community citywide. I hope that people can kind of look at the point that we're at and know that it's going to evolve to become so much bigger than just Chinatown against the arena. 

There's skin in the game for all of us to get involved in this, and I really do believe that we could pull this off. We have an opportunity to actually flip this on its head, and instead of trying to just fight off this thing, we can actually advocate for what we want to see happen in our city. 

It’s not just no arena. We need air conditioning in our schools. We need funding for public transit and housing for people to live in. All of those different things.  

Taryn: Yeah, an analogy that my mom brought up, when people say that it's a done deal, imagine you're an athlete, you spend your entire life training to go to the Olympics. You finally get to the Olympics. Are you, like, “Oh, I'm too tired and I'm done. I've become an Olympian qualifier, I'm done.” No! You go to the starting line, and then you run the best race. 

That's where we are with the arena now. We've gotten to the point where we've got to fight council legislation. We've been saying that for two years. Now is not the time to say, “Oh, I'm tired. It's a done deal.” This is when it gets hard, and this is when in all previous fights, this is when the pressure gets even more intense. And you show up to city council in massive numbers. 

I think a lot about the Vine Street Expressway and that really famous photo of young people sitting on top of rubble that is all demolished houses. I think it was 1973, 1972, yeah?

Lauren: 1973. 

Taryn: And there's huge banners, “Homes, not highways.” I think about that photo all the time. I think about it today. Even if they were demolishing the fashion district at this very moment, we will be there. It's not a done deal. If this was happening to anyone else's community, they would never stop. And Chinatown won't either. You want to fight for your neighbors, or in my case, aunties and uncles and kids and friends.